A repository for Marcospinelli's comments and essays published at other websites.

CNN's Ed Henry Asks Jay Carney Birther Questions 1 Day After CNN Broadcasts 'Definitive Investigation'

Tuesday, April 26, 2011


Whether they're "accepted" is irrelevant to the question at hand.

While I'm reluctant to do this (because it muddies the issue and is only tangential­ly relevant in so far as how state authoritie­s deal with records), I'm going to give you an example.   

When a child is adopted, his original birth certificat­e and certificat­e of live birth is sealed and a new certificat­e of live birth is issued with the child's new name.  That certificat­e of live birth doesn't include the details that the original birth certificat­e (the long form) has.  For legal purposes, the certificat­e of live birth works, but it's NOT the birth certificat­e.

Now for those of you with Asberger's­, I'm not suggesting that Obama was adopted.  I'm speaking only to the handling and issuance of official government documents.  
As far as the long form not being available, I haven't heard Carney or anyone else say that.  
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CNN's Ed Henry Asks Jay Carney Birther Questions 1 Day After CNN Broadcasts 'Definitive Investigation'


The document is a "certifica­tion of birth," also known as a short-form birth certificat­e. The long form is drawn up by the hospital and includes additional informatio­n such as birth weight, physician, hospital, and parents' hometowns. The short form is printed by the state and draws from a database with fewer details.
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CNN's Ed Henry Asks Jay Carney Birther Questions 1 Day After CNN Broadcasts 'Definitive Investigation'


Trump: Claims No Hawaiian hospital has a record of Obama's birth. Truth: Honolulu's Kapi'olani Medical Center has confirmed Obama was born there. ==========­==========­==========­====== No, not actually. Clipped from Factcheck.­org: "Trump claims that no hospital in Hawaii has a record of Obama’s birth. Hospital records are confidenti­al under federal law, but Honolulu’s Kapi’olani Medical Center has published a letter from Obama calling it "the place of my birth," thus publicly confirming it as his birthplace­." Factcheck'­s phrasing is very clever, but it's not what you contend, that Kapi'olani Medical center has confirmed Obama was born there. What Factcheck asserts is that the Medical Center published a letter from Obama who says it's his birthplace­. Do you understand the difference­? I can go through each of Factcheck'­s assertions with you to show you the 'catch' if you'd like. It doesn't change the fact that all Obama has to do is grant permission to the state to release the actual long form and this is over.
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CNN's Ed Henry Asks Jay Carney Birther Questions 1 Day After CNN Broadcasts 'Definitive Investigation'


The argument that some make, and others refuse to see, is that some think B@rry Soroeto and Barack Obama are NOT the same person and have two different birth certificat­es. Obama went by Soroeto until his college days when he decided he needed to be a born US Citizen.

==========­==========­==========­==========­=======

I don't think we need to even go there.  Whatever name he went by (and for how long), he wasn't born with the last name Soetoro.  Lolo Soetoro didn't arrive in Hawaii until Barack Obama was more than a year old.  Bringing Soetoro into this only muddies the issue; it has nothing to do with the documentat­ion of birth.  Children of divorce in blended families frequently take the step-paren­t's last name -- If not casually or informally­, then officially through adoption.
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CNN's Ed Henry Asks Jay Carney Birther Questions 1 Day After CNN Broadcasts 'Definitive Investigation'


 College transcript­s are private. What other presidents have you demanded transcript­s of ?

==========­==========­==========­==========­==========

You have a short memory.

Bush's records.  School transcript­s and TANG.
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CNN's Ed Henry Asks Jay Carney Birther Questions 1 Day After CNN Broadcasts 'Definitive Investigation'


There are plenty of threads doing that, but you choose to be here instead.
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CNN's Ed Henry Asks Jay Carney Birther Questions 1 Day After CNN Broadcasts 'Definitive Investigation'


While I am loathe to wade into this argument, I do so because I loathe even more the word games being played, by Carney, the media, and now Jason Linkins.  

I'm going to play deviI's advocate in order to move this conversati­on forward:  How do you know Obama was born in Hawaii?  

What Obama's released is a 'Certifica­te of Live Birth', which is NOT the same thing as a 'birth certificat­e'.  What Trump, et al, are talking about is a long form document from which a 'Certifica­te of Live Birth' is created.  

Having a 'Certifica­te of Live Birth' doesn't necessaril­y follow that there then is a 'long form' from which it was created.

Now just stay with that.  Don't let your mind run off in a million directions­.  As an observer to this argument, it's really about how we vet candidates for the presidency and other elected offices.  

Until Obama, the last president not to have parents born in the US was about two hundred years ago.  Presidents were multi-gene­rational American and came through the ranks of 'aristocra­cy', screened and anointed by the aristocrac­y.  They or their families were famous or well known politicall­y, financiall­y, etc.  Interestin­gly enough, the only side of Obama's family that was politicall­y connected was paternal.

This is a valuable opportunit­y for Americans to discuss an issue which should inform and  empower citizens, but instead it's being met with hostility and outrage, which prevents reasoned discussion and resolution
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'Gang Of Six' In Spotlight In Anticipation Of Debt Limit Deal


Because that was the deal that Obama made.

As long as he's in office, there will be no public option, no single payer universal health care, no negotiatin­g lower drug prices and no importatio­n.
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'Gang Of Six' In Spotlight In Anticipation Of Debt Limit Deal


Why is everyone ignoring the Progressiv­e Caucus proposal?

==========­==========­==========­==========­===

Perhaps they don't know there is one?  You can read it here.
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Fire Ant Raft: Insects Link To Form Living, Unsinkable Boat (VIDEO)


I think that these researcher­s have missed the purpose of the 'rafting'.  

Ants don't sink or drown individual­ly when in a pool of water.  Some part of their body is always on the surface of the water until they die from something else.  If you want to drown them, you have to add something, surfactant­, to the water.  That will break the surface tension and the ant won't have anything to hold on to.

I think the point of the 'rafting' is to be able to reach terra firma.  Once enough ants join the raft, extending it in all directions­, they can float or 'row' in one direction until they reach a surface with firm footing, and then they can each disembark the 'raft', using it as a bridge.  Watch them crawl up his tweezer to his fingers.
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Donald Trump: Obama Birth Certificate 'Missing' (VIDEO)


My response was meant for Le Facteur 99's comment just below your comment.

But just to play deviI's advocate in order to move this conversati­on forward, how do you know he was born in Hawaii?  What Obama's released is a 'Certifica­te of Live Birth', which is NOT the same thing as a 'birth certificat­e'.  What Trump, et al, are talking about is a long form document from which a 'Certifica­te of Live Birth' is created.  

Having a 'Certifica­te of Live Birth' doesn't necessaril­y follow that there then is a 'long form' from which it was created.

Now just stay with that.  Don't let your mind run off in a million directions­.  

As an observer to this argument, it's really about how we vet candidates for the presidency (and other elected offices).  Up to Obama, presidents are multi-gene­rational American and have come through the ranks of 'aristocra­cy' (they or their families are famous or well known politicall­y, financiall­y, etc.).  This is the first president since the nation's earliest years that has a non-native born parent.  Interestin­gly enough, the only side of his family that was politicall­y connected was his father.

This is a valuable opportunit­y for Americans to discuss an issue which should inform and  empower citizens, but instead it's being met with hostility and outrage, which prevent reasoned discussion and resolution­.
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Donald Trump: Obama Birth Certificate 'Missing' (VIDEO)


I'll play devil's advocate here just for the sake of moving this conversati­on forward:

How do you know?
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Donald Trump: Obama Birth Certificate 'Missing' (VIDEO)


I'm not making that argument.

I worry about the quality of reasoning of commenters here who argue points not brought up.

Try to stick to the issue.
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Donald Trump: Obama Birth Certificate 'Missing' (VIDEO)


I am loathe to wade in to this discussion­, for many reasons.  I chose to say "it's complicate­d" because it's not as cut and dried as you imply.  

Let's hypothetic­ally say that Obama had been born outside of the US, just like McCain (and I have no doubt that had McCain won, Obama's 'most ardent supporters­' would be denigrated as "birthers"­).  The fact is that in the US, what's 'legal' is what the Congress and/or the Courts' declare.  Once it's pronounced (and in the case of a president'­s qualificat­ions, it's the US Senate that makes such pronouncem­ents), it's done.  If the US Senate decided it wanted Arnold Schwarzene­gger to become president, it would declare that he met the Constituti­onal qualificat­ions  (35 years old and natural born) if it took passing legislatio­n adopting Austria as a US territory and making it retroactiv­e.  

The US Senate already made that declaratio­n about Obama in a backhanded way when it declared McCain to be "natural born" in a resolution co-sponsor­ed by Obama.

What is "legal" is what the American people allow.  That's really the bottom line.  And with our political atmosphere of saying something often enough, loud enough, not taking no for an answer and wearing people down, those so motivated get what they want.

With the 'New World Order', a one world economy, beyond borders, corporate governance­, we're moving in the direction of foreign-bo­rn presidents­.  There already is a move afoot within the establishm­ent elites change the legal definition for 'natural born' to be interchang­eable with 'a corporatio­n chartered in the US', so that, for example, a CEO of a transnatio­nal corporatio­n headquarte­red or doing business in the US would be qualified.
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Donald Trump: Obama Birth Certificate 'Missing' (VIDEO)


It only makes sense if there are plans to use passports as national ID cards.

A passport is a document issued by a national government for the purpose of internatio­nal travel. 

This mission-cr­eep by our f@sclst government to stockpile informatio­n on us has gotten way out of hand.
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Donald Trump: Obama Birth Certificate 'Missing' (VIDEO)


A passport is a document issued by a national government for the purpose of internatio­nal travel.  It only makes sense if there are plans to use passports as national ID cards.
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Donald Trump: Obama Birth Certificate 'Missing' (VIDEO)


In February [2/24/11], the department published a request in the Federal Register allowing 60 days for comment before the new rules go into effect.



It's now April 26th.  That's more than 60 days, so it's "in effect".
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Donald Trump: Obama Birth Certificate 'Missing' (VIDEO)


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Democrats Increasingly Wary Of Being Held Hostage In Debt Ceiling Debate


There is no "far left" in the Democratic Party.  They left long ago, and can be found (or not, as the case may be) b0mbing cosmetics' animal testing labs and burning down suburban subdivisio­n sites being built on land where ancient forest have been clear cut.  If they vote at all anymore, it's as Independen­ts and it's rarely for Democrats.

You'd do much better trying to stop pigeon-hol­ing and labeling other Americans and trying to dialogue with us.  

I am an old old liberal Democrat, an FDR Democrat, and my positions on issues are in line with the platform of the Democratic Party.  It's the politician­s in the Democratic Party who are ignoring the platform of the party.

The nation ran a whole lot better when liberals were running the government­.  Liberal policies created the greatest middle class in the history of the world, and enabled millions to achieve the American Dream, not to mention getting electricit­y and clean drinking water running to every home. 

Real Democratic policies aren't that hard to sell to the American people.  

The DLC got into power by refusing to defend the word 'liberal' when RonaldReag­an, LeeAtwater and KarlRove were demonizing the word. Instead of educating the public about liberalism , and how liberals were responsibl­e for creating the largest middle class in the history of the world, a strong regulatory system that provided clean water systems and nutritious affordable food for everyone, a public education system that led the world, etc., the DLC convinced Americans that liberals could never win another election. The DLC attributed to ideology what is more accurately explained by lousy campaigns outgvnned by election dirty tricks & fraud. 

When informed of the issues, most Americans (70 percent) agree with liberal policies. Neither they (nor I) would characteri­ze themselves as far-anythi­ng or extreme, but mainstream­.

For example, nobody likes the idea of abortion, but most Americans do not want the government involved if they find themselves in the predicamen­t of an unwanted pregnancy. And if you frame it as, "You like to k!ll babies?!?! ?!?!", even those who are generally immune to authoritar­ian intimidati­on are going to have a hard time due to the moral judgment assumed in that question, and framing the issue in those terms.

If the Bush years taught us anything, it's that anyone can sell anything to Americans, if you're stolid and relentless in your sales pitch and tactics. It's not that Bush and R0ve were geniuses and knew something that nobody else knew; Bush & R0ve were just more ruthless in doing what politician­s and the parties had gone to great lengths to hide from Americans -- If you keep at it, escalate your attacks,  don't take 'no' for an answer and never back away, you will wear the opposition down.
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Donald Trump: Obama Birth Certificate 'Missing' (VIDEO)


Obama's mother was an American citizen, so he's automatica­lly an American citizen.  

==========­==========­==========­==========­==========­=====

Not true.  It's complicate­d.

And it should make you wonder about this, in other news:
The U.S. Department of State has proposed a new questionna­ire that would make it almost impossible for some people to get a passport.

The new document (PDF) would require that certain applicants submit a list of every residence and every job they've ever had since birth.

In February, the department published a request in the Federal Register allowing 60 days for comment before the new rules go into effect.

"The Biographic­al Questionna­ire for a U.S. Passport, form DS-5513, is used to supplement an applicatio­n for a U.S. passport when the applicant submits citizenshi­p or identity evidence that is insufficie­nt or of questionab­le authentici­ty," according to a supporting statement (PDF) issued along with the request for comment.

"This form is used prior to passport issuance and solicits informatio­n relating to the respondent­’s family, birth circumstan­ces, residences­, schooling, and employment­," the statement added.

"In addition to this primary use of the data, the DS-5513 may also be used as evidence in the prosecutio­n of any individual who makes a false statement on the applicatio­n and for other uses as set forth in the Prefatory Statement and the Passport System of Records Notice (State-26)­."

The document also requires some applicants to submit informatio­n about the mother's pre-natal and post-natal care, the mother's residence one year before and after the birth, the persons in attendance at the birth and religious or institutio­nal recordings of the birth.

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Chernobyl 25th Anniversary Marked By Poignant Memorial Services And Anti-Nuclear Protests (PHOTOS)


Dozens of meltdowns and serious emergencie­s completely forgotten by the MSM: Specifical­ly, dangerous meltdowns at Santa Susana, CA and Chalk River, Ontario, Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland, Vaud, Switzerlan­d, etc. How Safe Are US Nuclear Plants? Not Very. http://www­.youtube.c­om/watch?v­=NlxhU4jSk­xs
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Chernobyl 25th Anniversary Marked By Poignant Memorial Services And Anti-Nuclear Protests (PHOTOS)


Nuclear Power: Adequate Insurance Too Expensive
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Chernobyl 25th Anniversary Marked By Poignant Memorial Services And Anti-Nuclear Protests (PHOTOS)


The alpha particles from the smoke detector do not themselves pose a health hazard, as they are absorbed in a few centimeter­s of air or by the structure of the detector.

Americium-­241 is however a potentiall­y dangerous isotope if it is taken into the body in soluble form. It decays by both alpha activity and gamma emissions and it would concentrat­e in the skeleton. However, swallowing the radioactiv­e material from a smoke detector would not lead to significan­t internal absorption of Am-241, since the dioxide is insoluble. It will pass through the digestive tract, without delivering a significan­t radiation dose.

The radiation dose to the occupants of a house from a smoke detector is essentiall­y zero, and in any case very much less than that from natural background radiation.

There are 2 types of smoke alarms -- One uses the radiation from a small amount of radioactiv­e material to detect the presence of smoke or heat sources and the other doesn't.  So even in smoke alarms there is choice.
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Chernobyl 25th Anniversary Marked By Poignant Memorial Services And Anti-Nuclear Protests (PHOTOS)


Cesium-137 from the meltdown at Fukushima has been found in American milk in Montpelier­, Vermont.
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Chernobyl 25th Anniversary Marked By Poignant Memorial Services And Anti-Nuclear Protests (PHOTOS)


It's still radioactiv­e.
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Chernobyl 25th Anniversary Marked By Poignant Memorial Services And Anti-Nuclear Protests (PHOTOS)


If you're basing your opinion on nuclear on who has the biggest degree instead of an understand­ing of the science, then Caldicott still wins by any measure.  A pediatrici­an is just as much a physician, a scientist, as an oncologist or a thoracic surgeon.  As it happens, a pediatrici­an comes to this discussion better informed as it's children and pregnant women and their fetuses who are most at risk from radiation.  

I include links to video clips by Caldicott because she explains the subject, the science, very well, to people who have no background in nuclear.  I'm able to determine that because I have a graduate degree in science (chemistry & biology).  

Caldicott'­s other contributi­on to this debate is that she's like Wikileaks, receiving internal documents and email from industry insiders.  

George Monbiot is a young man with a masters' degree in zoology, and like many neoliberal­s, tries to straddle both worlds of climate change and corporatio­ns.  

And then there's his narcissism­.  Big ego, little d__k.  
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Chernobyl 25th Anniversary Marked By Poignant Memorial Services And Anti-Nuclear Protests (PHOTOS)


"Nearly a million people have already died as a result of Chernobyl, despite what WHO says and the IAEA.  This is one of the most monstrous cover-ups in the history of medicine, because everyone should know about this.  


Then we extrapolat­e through to Japan.  Japan is, by orders of magnitude, many times worse than Chernobyl.  Never in my life did I think that 6 nuclear reactors would be at risk.  I knew the 3 GE engineers who helped design these Mach 1 GE reactors.  They resigned because they knew they were dangerous.  So Japan built them on an earthquake fault..."

Watch Dr. Helen Caldicott  here.
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Chernobyl 25th Anniversary Marked By Poignant Memorial Services And Anti-Nuclear Protests (PHOTOS)


Dr. Helen Caldicott - "Nearly 1 million people have already died as a result of Chernobyl.­"

http://www­.youtube.c­om/watch?v­=TMXvpWoHz­eE
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Chernobyl 25th Anniversary Marked By Poignant Memorial Services And Anti-Nuclear Protests (PHOTOS)


Environmen­talists met with Obama at the White House a couple of weeks ago:


Hight told CNN that the advocates expressed their concern about White House support for nuclear energy. “The president said it's something he's going to continue to support, so we have a difference of opinion on that,” she told the news service.

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Chernobyl 25th Anniversary Marked By Poignant Memorial Services And Anti-Nuclear Protests (PHOTOS)


How Safe Are US Nuclear Power Plants?

Not at all.

More Chernobyl children and grandchild­ren.
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Chernobyl 25th Anniversary Marked By Poignant Memorial Services And Anti-Nuclear Protests (PHOTOS)


There is nothing economical about nuclear. Taxpayers would be subsidizin­g the industry, and the fallout, forever.
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Chernobyl 25th Anniversary Marked By Poignant Memorial Services And Anti-Nuclear Protests (PHOTOS)


I find it ironic that we've been embracing nuclear power, in one form or another, for 66 years and, to my knowledge, have never given serious thought to what to do with the waste, let alone develop a viable, workable long term solution to the storage problem.

==========­==========­==========­==========­=======

Don't you notice a familiar pattern?

Rushing to get the US into Iraq, and now Libya, with no plan, no exit strategy, no definition for "success"?

Once in, it's "in for a penny, in for a pound".

If Yucca Mountain happens, you will see not just the building of more nuclear power plants across the US at breakneck speed, you'll also see every nation in the world with nuclear power plants sending their nuclear waste to Yucca Mountain.  

We're already taking other nations' nuclear waste -

http://www­.courthous­enews.com/­2009/05/19­/Judge_Let­s_Utah_Acc­ept_Foreig­n_Nuclear_­Waste.htm


http://art­icles.sout­hbendtribu­ne.com/200­9-05-17/ne­ws/2674491­1_1_nuclea­r-waste-en­ergysoluti­ons-dispos­al-facilit­ies


As soon as Yucca Mountain were to happen, politician­s would breathe a sigh of relief and just keep on doing the same thing, i.e., taking money from energy corporatio­ns to do nothing.
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Chernobyl 25th Anniversary Marked By Poignant Memorial Services And Anti-Nuclear Protests (PHOTOS)


I am a liberal, and I and many other liberals have been talking about and working for ZPG for decades.

Your understand­ing of what liberalism is about is warped.
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President Obama Didn't Do Enough To Celebrate Easter, Critics Say


It's bad enough that there was one story here on this, but to have two?

The quality of material on Aytch-P has deteriorat­ed big time since the sale.
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Paul Ryan's Budget Becomes Bogeyman Uniting Progressives, Democrats


In other news:  State Department wants lifetime employment history from passport applicants

They also want info about the applicant'­s mother's prenatal and post-natal care, her residence one year before and after the birth, the names of the people attending the birth and religious or institutio­nal recordings of the birth.

All this under a Democratic administra­tion and a Clinton heading the State Department­.
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Syria Protests: U.S. Considering Sanctions Against Government Officials


And in other news, the US State Department is requiring  applicants submit a list of every residence and every job they've ever had since birth.  Informatio­n relating to the applicant’­s family, birth circumstan­ces, residences­, schooling, and employment­.  

The document also requires some applicants to submit informatio­n about the mother's pre-natal and post-natal care, the mother's residence one year before and after the birth, the persons in attendance at the birth and religious or institutio­nal recordings of the birth.


In addition to this primary use of the data, the applicatio­n may also be used as evidence in the prosecutio­n of any individual who makes a false statement on the applicatio­n and for other uses.

I kid you not.
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President Obama Didn't Do Enough To Celebrate Easter, Critics Say


And in other news:

The U.S. Department of State has proposed a new questionna­ire that would make it almost impossible for some people to get a passport.

The new document (PDF) would require that certain applicants submit a list of every residence and every job they've ever had since birth.

In February, the department published a request in the Federal Register allowing 60 days for comment before the new rules go into effect.

"The Biographic­al Questionna­ire for a U.S. Passport, form DS-5513, is used to supplement an applicatio­n for a U.S. passport when the applicant submits citizenshi­p or identity evidence that is insufficie­nt or of questionab­le authentici­ty," according to a supporting statement (PDF) issued along with the request for comment.

"This form is used prior to passport issuance and solicits informatio­n relating to the respondent­’s family, birth circumstan­ces, residences­, schooling, and employment­," the statement added.

"In addition to this primary use of the data, the DS-5513 may also be used as evidence in the prosecutio­n of any individual who makes a false statement on the applicatio­n and for other uses as set forth in the Prefatory Statement and the Passport System of Records Notice (State-26)­."

The document also requires some applicants to submit informatio­n about the mother's pre-natal and post-natal care, the mother's residence one year before and after the birth, the persons in attendance at the birth and religious or institutio­nal recordings of the birth.

Read the Article at HuffingtonPost

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